Date is 2012-04-12, times are UTC+02.
22:59 <agd5f> hi
22:59 <+alanc> hello
23:00 <marcoz> hi
23:00 <+emmes> hey all
23:01 <Bart_Massey> We're at 6; not bad.
23:01 <Bart_Massey> keithp: ?
23:02 <Bart_Massey> anholt: ?
23:02 <keithp> yup
23:02 <keithp> sup all?
23:02 <stukreit> 2:02 pst, hi!
23:02 <Bart_Massey> notmuch :-)
23:03 <Bart_Massey> Completely confused. Who all are the current Board Members :-) ?
23:04 <+alanc> http://www.x.org/wiki/BoardOfDirectors
23:04 <Bart_Massey> OK, I'm at 7
23:04 <Bart_Massey> Just couldn't count
23:04 <Bart_Massey> Was staring at that page, and failing
23:04 <Bart_Massey> We're all here except Anholt, then. Let's get started
23:05 <Bart_Massey> Sorry: subsequent meetings I'll try to start on time
23:05 <Bart_Massey> Actually, first item of business: my list for X.Org is pretty deep.
23:05 <Bart_Massey> If you don't want me to run screaming into the night I need some help with stuff. :-)
23:06 <Bart_Massey> 1. Feeling really guilty that I haven't finished with The Book. Need someone to volunteer for a session sometime soon to figure the last of that out.
23:06 <Bart_Massey> 2. We need to have proposed changes to the Bylaws ready to vote by XDS in September. This will happen sooner than you think. Need someone to work with on that.
23:07 <stukreit> Do we have a bullet list of items that must be fixed?
23:07 <Bart_Massey> 3. Need to get the Call For Proposals and Program Committee together for XDS; not in that order
23:07 <Bart_Massey> stukreit: No, that's the first item of business. Recover all the items we can from old IRC logs and stuff.
23:07 <Bart_Massey> After that, we need to read the Bylaws and carefully compare with current practice.
23:07 <Bart_Massey> I'm expecting 2-5 proposed amendments by the time we are done with that.
23:08 <+alanc> the bylaws issues I remember are: 1) conflict of interest statement to meet IRS reqts. 2) change check signing to single-person
23:08 <Bart_Massey> I'd add (3) let the election date float
23:08 <stukreit> oh yeah, Justin never did get us the boilerplate before he left sflc.
23:08 <Bart_Massey> We talked about (4) relaxing the single-organization member requirement by one
23:09 <marcoz> Bart_Massey: I'll help with the book however I can. lemme know what I can do..
23:09 <Bart_Massey> marcoz: let's schedule a meeting offline to work on finishing this.
23:09 <Bart_Massey> thanks
23:10 <marcoz> k and yw.
23:10 <Bart_Massey> So yeah, somebody needs to get all this together and ready to go. I'm happy to help read things and draft the amendments, but history suggests I will not complete on my own :-)
23:11 <Bart_Massey> As far as XDS, someone needs to step up and contact Program Committee members until we have a plausible PC. emmes: would being PC Chair be useful to you academically?
23:12 <+emmes> emmes: I doubt it being useful here, but I guess I could do it. Though I'm swamped this semester due to new lectures...
23:12 <Bart_Massey> emmes: if it doesn't look good on your vita and help you get tenured, forget it.
23:13 <Bart_Massey> keithp: sounds like you're drafted to help me put a PC together. we'll talk to tomorrow
23:13 <keithp> Bart_Massey: I'm leaving at some point tomorrow; not sure what time, presumably lunch-ish though...
23:13 <+emmes> nope, won't help me.
23:13 <Bart_Massey> keithp: OK, later then
23:14 <keithp> Bart_Massey: or am on the pone
23:14 <Bart_Massey> emmes: The American system is very different, I think :-)
23:14 <agd5f> I can talk to sflc about the conflict of interest boilerplate
23:14 <Bart_Massey> keithp: In a faculty candidate job talk AM. Sometime soon
23:14 <+emmes> Bart_Massey: yes, *very* ;-)
23:14 <Bart_Massey> agd5f: thanks huge
23:14 <stukreit> agd5f: do you have the name of our current contact?
23:15 <Bart_Massey> stukreit: Not on the agenda, but there's supposed to be a Treasurer Report issued at the start of every year. Did you do that this year? Can't remember.
23:15 <Bart_Massey> I have added the State of X report to my TODO list.
23:15 <stukreit> a repor.. that would be nice. ok, my AI
23:15 <Bart_Massey> stukreit: tx much
23:15 <+alanc> can you forward our sflc contact info to the board list? I promised matttst88 to forward some questions about Xaw license cleanup to our lawyers
23:15 <agd5f> stukreit: is Aaron gone?
23:16 <stukreit> let me look..
23:16 <+alanc> oh, is it still the aaronw we exchanged e-mail with a few months ago?
23:17 <Bart_Massey> So somebody who wants to play rules lawyer (not necessarily on the Board---feel free to suggest others) needs to help with the Bylaws and we're set
23:17 <agd5f> it was karen, then justin, then aaron IIRC
23:17 <Bart_Massey> There's no urgency on the Bylaws yet, but I want to get started
23:17 <stukreit> ok. yes, I believe its Aaron now.
23:17 <+alanc> I'll try to take a look at the current bylaws and see if I can spot problems we need to fix
23:18 <Bart_Massey> alanc: Thanks
23:18 <Bart_Massey> it would also be great to comb the logs and past notes to see what we've forgotten
23:18 <Bart_Massey> What is the status of XDS? I think it's been formally announced. Are all the logistics in place? Do we have an initial estimate of how big it will be?
23:19 <marcoz> mount
23:19 <+emmes> it would also be rather interesting for the catering...
23:20 <+alanc> oh yeah, I did notice someone from sflc recently gave a talk on how it's hard to become an open source foundation these days: https://events.linuxfoundation.org/events/collaboration-summit/williamson https://events.linuxfoundation.org/images/stories/pdf/lfcs2012_williamson.pdf should have realized it was the person we'd been working with
23:20 <Bart_Massey> marcoz: Ararat? Sermon on the? Sorry, I seem to be all Biblical here
23:20 <marcoz> stupid windows doesn't have focus follows mouse
23:20 <+alanc> Bart_Massey: and my brain jumped straight to "wrong window, run that in xterm to see your filesystems"
23:20 <Bart_Massey> lol
23:21 <+emmes> the room is officially ordered and fixed. Catering will be ordered only shortly before the event. Egbert's negotiating prices with nearby hotels, that's the last thing i heard.
23:21 <Bart_Massey> OK. So we're in good shape there. Anything else we should be worried about with the conference itself right now?
23:22 <Bart_Massey> Tx, BTW: I know how hard that work is.
23:22 <+emmes> nothing important I'm aware of...
23:22 <Bart_Massey> I keep calling it XDS: It's now officially XDC by Board vote. Correct me until I get it right :-)
23:23 <Bart_Massey> So do we have or want any specific plans or policy for funding travel to XDC?
23:23 <marcoz> unofficially - XorgConf (like in Zorro)
23:24 <Bart_Massey> If so, isn't it or shouldn't it be written down somewhere?
23:24 <Bart_Massey> I ask partly because I'll probably want some travel help. :-)
23:24 <+emmes> I'd suggest the usual - you get funding if your company really doesn't sponsor you, and you're prepared to give a talk. But I don't think this notion is anywhere near being official.
23:24 <+alanc> did we have a formal policy in past years other than "ask us, and we'll decide case-by-case"?
23:24 <Bart_Massey> alanc: nope. I'm only concerned because it seems like there are more requests every year (which is good)
23:25 <+emmes> alanc: i guess it boils down to this.
23:25 <Bart_Massey> As far as I'm concerned we can leave it loose again for now, but I thought I'd bring it up
23:25 <+alanc> fair enough
23:25 <Bart_Massey> emmes: ?
23:25 <Bart_Massey> emmes: nm got it
23:26 <+emmes> Bart_Massey: I was agreeing with "case-by-case"
23:26 <Bart_Massey> OK, I'll leave it for now. LMK if we need to do more in some future mtg
23:26 <Bart_Massey> OK, next item: Wayland
23:26 <Bart_Massey> Something I've been talking with various folks about for a long time is that there's a lot of confusion in the public about the relationsihp of Wayland to X.Org
23:26 <Bart_Massey> This is partly because we've never made any public statement about it.
23:27 <Bart_Massey> I don't propose to resolve all that this meeting, but I want to at least discuss what relationsihp the X.Org Foundation, specifically, has and should have to Wayland.
23:28 <Bart_Massey> My personal feeling is that inasmuch as Wayland becomes the natural successor to X.Org, built by mostly X.Org people for the benefit of our community, the Foundation should support it the same way we do "the rest of X". If they want us :-).
23:29 <Bart_Massey> Anybody feel differently? Don't be shy...
23:29 <agd5f> seems somewhat akin to mesa
23:29 <+alanc> for GSoC last year, we agreed Wayland was part of the larger graphics community we covered there, alongside Mesa, DRI, XCB, etc.
23:29 <Bart_Massey> agd5f: Somewhat. We should probably also clarify the relationship of the Foundation to Mesa :-)
23:29 <+emmes> good point
23:30 <agd5f> I kind of think of xorg as promoting open source gui stacks whether or not they involve X proper, but we may want to clarify the bylaws, etc.
23:30 <Bart_Massey> alanc: Yeah, that's my take as well: the Foundation should be as inclusive as possible in the X-ish stack below the toolkit layer
23:30 <+alanc> something to add to the bylaw list? clarification of charter?
23:30 <Bart_Massey> agd5f: I always sort of draw the line "below" freedesktop.org
23:31 <Bart_Massey> We're more plumbing, "they" are more porcelain
23:31 <+alanc> but "we" are "they"
23:31 <Bart_Massey> alanc: I'm not sure we have to go that formal. I'd just like a public statement e.g. on our website about what we think we're doing
23:31 <Bart_Massey> alanc: I know it's all the same people, but it's different money, different org structure, etc
23:31 <agd5f> Bart_Massey: right
23:31 <agd5f> not DEs and toolkits, but the services they use
23:32 <+alanc> I didn't think freedesktop.org really had an org structure beyond hosting service
23:32 <Bart_Massey> agd5f: Yeah
23:32 <Bart_Massey> alanc: It seems to have an org structure named Keith Packard, last I checked :-)
23:32 <+alanc> and all of X.org, mesa, xcb, wayland, and even some of DRI are hosted on fd.o
23:33 <Bart_Massey> alanc: But that's the point; the public and the US IRS would both like us to be clear about what's us and what's them.
23:33 <Bart_Massey> Although really, that isn't where I intended to take this.
23:33 <Bart_Massey> I mostly thought that Wayland (but yeah, also Mesa etc) is kind of confusing to everyone right now
23:34 <jcristau> freedesktop.org has enough of an org structure to be listed as an SPI associated project. but that may still just be keith.
23:34 <marcoz> alanc, does Xorg really have any infrastructure to offer in support? seems we use fd.o for everything and X.org really just does the money thing and a conference....
23:34 <+alanc> at one point X.org owned some machines colocated at MIT - those should be all shut down now and migrated to VM's on fd.o hardware
23:35 <Bart_Massey> Effectively, we "subcontract" our HW infrastructure to fd.o right now. Everyone seems happy enough with this, and I don't propose to change it.
23:35 <keithp> fd.o definitely uses the X.org affiliation when doing fundraising for fd.o hardware
23:35 <Bart_Massey> I doubt anyone else here objects to that. :-)
23:36 <marcoz> no objections to anything. I just want to make sure I correctly understand how things are.
23:36 <+alanc> expo.x.org hosts the membership roster/voting system web app (which really needs to be re-written some year), and some ancient archives of the old consortia
23:36 <Bart_Massey> alanc: Yeah, the election app was on my agenda for a future meeting :-)
23:37 <+alanc> plus it used to have our vesa docs available for members to access, but I don't remember how to get to those
23:37 <keithp> alanc: used to be via ftp...
23:37 <agd5f> I'm not sure it does anymore, although I would like to post them at some point
23:38 <Bart_Massey> OK, so I think that we have this covered for now. I'll bring it up later after everyone has had a chance to think and discuss. If someone wants to draft some text for the website, we could discuss that at a future mtg
23:38 <Bart_Massey> BTW, missed stitch at the beginning: Is this meeting being logged?
23:39 <Bart_Massey> Anyone?
23:39 <stukreit> just cut&paste it into a file
23:40 <Bart_Massey> stukreit: I can, but we need to make sure the file becomes publicly available. I'll grab it at the end for now, but I thought someone was logging these regularly...
23:40 <+alanc> emmes just made them appear on the web site for me when I was secretary, so maybe if you ask nicely...
23:40 <Bart_Massey> emmes: Are you logging? If not, any chance you would?
23:41 <Bart_Massey> We appear to be temporarily emmesless. I will assume he's logging for now, and we'll patch it up later.
23:42 <Bart_Massey> Next item, membership. As alanc has pointed out, we barely made quorum for the last election. Given that we've done pretty extensive roll purges in the past, this concerns me.
23:42 <Bart_Massey> I suspect it means that the number of people who are Members and know and care what's going on is still shrinking fairly rapidly.
23:43 <agd5f> I don't think we've purged in quite a while
23:43 <Bart_Massey> agd5f: Maybe three years ago? Anholt did much of the work
23:44 <Bart_Massey> As always, we need to do three things: (1) Try to increase the number of folks genuinely involved in X, (2) try to ensure everyone involved becomes a Member, and (3) do more purging of members-in-name-only
23:44 <agd5f> I think more like 5-6 years
23:44 <Bart_Massey> agd5f: I think there was another purge more recently, but I could well be quite wrong on this
23:44 <Bart_Massey> Anyway, it's time to do it again, I'm sure.
23:45 <+alanc> clarifying the mission to include the slightly wider free graphics stack may also encourage those who just want to hack on wayland or mesa to become members
23:45 <Bart_Massey> Anyway, we're running up on stopping time, so again I'm not going to try to solve this online today. I've been working on (1), but someone else may want to pick up (2) and/or (3)
23:45 <Bart_Massey> alanc: agreed
23:46 <Bart_Massey> Mesa is tricky, BTW: I'm not so sure how much Brian (if I got the name right) wants the Foundation involved?
23:47 <Bart_Massey> Anyway, let's leave it for now and think about it over the next few meetings: again there's no real urgency here, but it's work we need to do
23:47 <agd5f> we're not supposed to be involved in the decision making, just encouragement
23:47 <+alanc> yes, should talk to the leadership of the other projects before trying to make any announcements there - want to make clear we're not trying to take over or impose any technical decisions, just offer support & resources
23:47 <+alanc> like the video hackfest of a couple years ago
23:47 <Bart_Massey> Yes, the last thing we want is to be claiming to support somebody who explicitly says they don't want our support
23:48 <Bart_Massey> Very awkward for all concerned
23:48 <Bart_Massey> Anyway, last item of business: I won't be available for our next meeting. alanc: would you be willing to run that one?
23:48 <+alanc> we also need to make sure that any statement about supporting wayland doesn't come across as abandoning X, especially not for all the non-Linux platforms Wayland doesn't run on
23:49 <Bart_Massey> alanc: Absolutely. Unless we're abandoning X. :-) :-)
23:50 <+alanc> Bart_Massey: yeah, I should be able to run the meeting on the 26th
23:50 <Bart_Massey> alanc: Thanks much.
23:50 <Bart_Massey> Any other business?
23:51 <Bart_Massey> OK. Move to adjourn.
23:51 <+alanc> +1
23:51 <marcoz> +1
23:52 <agd5f> +1
23:52 <Bart_Massey> 1 more for quorum :-)
23:52 <keithp> yeah, we're out of here. +1
23:53 <Bart_Massey> Sorry to have run so long this time: will try to keep it shorter in the future
23:53 <Bart_Massey> Thanks all!